[Serious Discussion] Religion

[[SAE]Grim]

I don't recall claiming anything about religion being only for peace and harmony, I only stated some of the teachings of the Qur'an and Islam.

I'm starting to find you hard to take seriously, especially with media influenced comments like this.

You obviously have no idea at all about Islamic teachings, and views and treatment of women in Islam

Dude, literally everything we say bad about islam is because of media according to you, cut out the crap.

Maybe there are some cases of ill treatment

Maybe? Are you serious? And you find me hard to take seriously, please.

but doesn't that happen with atheists, Christians, Jews, and other religions too?

Never said it doesnt happen in those mentioned above.
It still doesnt change the fact that woman are being treated far differently from other religions, specially "atheism", compared to Islam.
The atheististic(lol) woman problem we have today is equality of status in the society, and it's very minimal anyway because we've learned from the past.

Islamic culture treats women wonderfully (I guess) when they obey their husbands and dont do anything but give birth to kids and walk around in burkas. But if they want to live their own live? Make their own choices? Experience real love? -Fuck you bitch you're getting stoned to death.

Islam today can be compared to how europe lived 200-300 years ago, woman barely had any rights at all.
No free will, cant make ur own decisions and the woman had only a few purposes in life. Satisfying the man and taking care of the kids.
Those who follow "true" Islam are experiencing this.

And on a side note, the most fucking ridiculous thing ever is that islamic women cant show any skin while walking around because the "man" will become too horny and try to rape you. And it's your fault if the man becomes horny, so u have to cover ur shit up.
Fuckin primite monkey-business at its best

opinion formed solely on things presented by the media.

lol

[Richard]

I have a question about all this stuff about women in the Islam.

What does the Quran say on the subject? On how to treat women. Are they lower etc? Because you say all the stuff we say is from the media but close to where I live there's a lot of Islamic families. I've seen it numerous times that the sons/fathers constantly curse at the women in the family and do nothing but put them down.

Also, I used to work with some Muslims when I was younger, they told me that smoking is not allowed. Is that true? And if you do, are you not considered a Muslim any more?

[Maka]

Holland and Belgium have quite the 'extremists', Richard. I mean, c'mon, they even want to build a damn mosque over here. They even have this 'Sharia for Belgium' thing, well, fuck that. Don't be surprised then that some of us got a bad view on some (not everyone) who follow that religion. I mean, seriously, this leader literally says they want to turn Belgium, and later the whole of Western Europe, into an Islamic state.

Video footage

Click that link (sorry guys, Dutch) in case you're interested.

Also, for the Muslims amongst us, may I ask what the deal is with them Sunnis and Shi'ites? They both seem to claim they descend from Mohammed or so. Next to that, for as much as I've got to know or hear, they also think they're better than each other.

Then I have another question, so don't blame me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Islam also have Abraham in the Quran? Is that the same as in the old testament in Christians' Bible? Just interested because, well, Muslims claim their book was written by God, whilst the Bible isn't.

[Richard]

Holland and Belgium have quite the 'extremists', Richard. I mean, c'mon, they even want to build a damn mosque over here. They even have this 'Sharia for Belgium' thing, well, fuck that. Don't be surprised then that some of us got a bad view on some (not everyone) who follow that religion. I mean, seriously, this leader literally says they want to turn Belgium, and later the whole of Western Europe, into an Islamic state.

Video footage

Click that link (sorry guys, Dutch) in case you're interested.

I don't mind if they want to build mosques over here and carry out their religion. I am all for freedom of religion and so on but they should respect the way people over here live too. We respect them and give them place and opportunity to carry out their religion, they should not try to push that away and force everyone into believing in theirs.

[0Target0]

We should just stop believing, cause it's all imagination.

[SAFC]

Grim link=topic=28190.msg389080#msg389080 date=1306414700]
Dude, literally everything we say bad about islam is because of media according to you, cut out the crap.

Maybe? Are you serious? And you find me hard to take seriously, please.

Never said it doesnt happen in those mentioned above.
It still doesnt change the fact that woman are being treated far differently from other religions, specially "atheism", compared to Islam.
The atheististic(lol) woman problem we have today is equality of status in the society, and it's very minimal anyway because we've learned from the past.

Islamic culture treats women wonderfully (I guess) when they obey their husbands and dont do anything but give birth to kids and walk around in burkas. But if they want to live their own live? Make their own choices? Experience real love? -Fuck you bitch you're getting stoned to death.

Islam today can be compared to how europe lived 200-300 years ago, woman barely had any rights at all.
No free will, cant make ur own decisions and the woman had only a few purposes in life. Satisfying the man and taking care of the kids.
Those who follow "true" Islam are experiencing this.

And on a side note, the most fucking ridiculous thing ever is that islamic women cant show any skin while walking around because the "man" will become too horny and try to rape you. And it's your fault if the man becomes horny, so u have to cover ur shit up.
Fuckin primite monkey-business at its best

lol

I'd love to know where else you'd be getting this information other than things you read or see through media. Have you actually researched anything about Islam and the roles of women in Islam? I'm 100 percent sure that's a no. You're totally off the mark with your comments.

The women choose whether they want to wear full hijab or not. By full hijab, I'm talking about the headgear that covers everything except the eyes. Women are required to cover all skin except for faces and hands. The reason for this is women are viewed as jewels of purity, something precious that must be respected and treasured. By covering their bodies, they're not allowing themselves to be judged solely on their looks and figure. It's also upto the woman herself what she wants to wear, whether it be covering everything except her eyes, or just covering her body, leaving her face uncovered, or sometimes hair also.

The only association with rape is when non-Muslims would attempt to capture women and children and rape them, during battles between Muslims and non-Muslims. So Hijab was a way of protection for the women.

It's not about stopping Muslim men being horny or raping the women, it's just about keeping the womans dignity, and allowing her to be seen as a person, not a face and body. There are many western white women, who chcose to cover everything except their eyes, purely for the fact they want to be judged by people for their personality.

Onto the subject of men mistreating women. Muslim men who ill treat women are doing so for themselves, the same way as non-Muslim men do. They're bullies, Islam does not teach men to bully women. So to say that Muslim men mistreat women is just selective association.

I have a question about all this stuff about women in the Islam.

What does the Quran say on the subject? On how to treat women. Are they lower etc? Because you say all the stuff we say is from the media but close to where I live there's a lot of Islamic families. I've seen it numerous times that the sons/fathers constantly curse at the women in the family and do nothing but put them down.

The majority of opinions about Islam are fuled by the manipulation of information by the media. Although I've personally seen similar cases but I must stress again that Islam does not teach men to treat women badly, that's a whole different psychological thing. The man needing to bully and put someone down to feel masculine and dominant, and the woman he is with is an easy target. Men like that excist through most societies, I know a few, and have almost came to blows with some because I disagreed with the way they spoke to their girlfriend, sometimes slapping the girl also.

There is a Surah in the Qur'an called An-Nisa (The Women) its the fourth longest Surah in the Qur'an (176 verses). It goes into detail about the rights of women. Islam teaches us to repsect women, and our parents, these are specified in the Qur'an. Women in Islam can also choose whether they marry or not, the family don't choose for the woman. It does happen though, and it's wrong in Islam. The Qur`an states that a forced marriage is void.

Also, I used to work with some Muslims when I was younger, they told me that smoking is not allowed. Is that true? And if you do, are you not considered a Muslim any more?

Smoking is haraam, it contains toxins, which the person smoking is knowingly putting into their body. Smoking is impure, so is not allowed.

Also, for the Muslims amongst us, may I ask what the deal is with them Sunnis and Shi'ites? They both seem to claim they descend from Mohammed or so. Next to that, for as much as I've got to know or hear, they also think they're better than each other.

Shia Muslims believe that Mohammad appointed his cousin Ali as his successor, to lead all Muslims. So Shia also follow teachings and sayings of Ali.

Sunni Muslims follow the Prophet Mohammad, and his teachings. Both Sunni and Shia follow different Hadith, with each believing their Hadith is more authentic.

I've not read enough about Shia Islam to comment much more about it. Both follow the Qur'an, although Shia take some of the verses to the extreme. Creating laws like beheading gays.In Iran they behead gays because they worry that gays will spread aids, and STIs. The Qur'an teaches that men having sex with men is wrong, but doesn't mention beheading them. Only that God will punish them unless they repent and ask for forgiveness swearing never to do it again.

Then I have another question, so don't blame me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Islam also have Abraham in the Quran? Is that the same as in the old testament in Christians' Bible? Just interested because, well, Muslims claim their book was written by God, whilst the Bible isn't.

Islam has the same prophets as Christianity does. Abraham, Moses, Noah, Joseph, Isaac, David, Solmon, and Jesus are all prophets in Islam, there are more, i just don't remember all of their names, and then Mohammad was the last Prophet.

Muslims believe the original Bible is from God, but that the Bible of today was altered and changed a lot. The Qur'an has remained unchanged, and is the only religious book to remain unchanged, being the same exact Qur'an no matter where it is printed or when.

I don't mind if they want to build mosques over here and carry out their religion. I am all for freedom of religion and so on but they should respect the way people over here live too. We respect them and give them place and opportunity to carry out their religion, they should not try to push that away and force everyone into believing in theirs.

I agree, I think pushing it in other peoples faces and judging them negatively for not agreeing or following the same practise is wrong, but people are not perfect. We can have a set of rules or guidelines, and often fail to follow them due to hastey emotions, and poor judgement. So you'll always get a minority of any culture who misrepresent the majority.

We should just stop believing, cause it's all imagination.

Opinion or fact?

Opinion? Cool live your life your way, each to their own.

Fact? Prove it, otherwise you're wasting your time posting.

[Munch]

Just so you know, they aren't accused of abusing little boys, they're accused of raping or molesting them...that's a HUGE difference.

Uhm...rape and molesting IS abusing the child. It's going against the child's will (or using their innocence) and causes harm. It may not be physical (violent), but it's still a form of sexual abuse.

Plus it falls under child abuse, so it is abuse, meaning those that performed those acts did infact abuse children.

Wikipedia says "Sexual abuse, also referred to as molestation, is the forcing of undesired sexual behaviour by one person upon another."

What does the Quran say on the subject? On how to treat women. Are they lower etc? Because you say all the stuff we say is from the media but close to where I live there's a lot of Islamic families. I've seen it numerous times that the sons/fathers constantly curse at the women in the family and do nothing but put them down.

I don't know exactly what the Quran says on how women are to be treated, however how they actually are treated isn't all just took out of context by the media. In my college there's this woman (not in my class) who is Muslim. She does not have to cover her face though.

In her home, her father's the boss, and other males in the family. Her father and brother (or brothers) literally ring a bell and she and her mother has to attend to their needs (cleaning, finding something, cooking). She's fortunate in that she's allowed an education and a chance to better her life, and from what I've heard her father is in some way caring, but still treats the females as lesser humans (though I don't think he uses violence, as there are laws to prevent that).

Regardless of what the media tells us, Muslim women do get oppressed, whether it's as bad as the media portrays I don't know, I've never been to the middle east and I've never been to many (or any) Muslim households. I'm sure they are not allowed to do that to women according to Islamic rules, but it happens.

We should just stop believing, cause it's all imagination.

That's all you ever say, can't you come up with better arguments? Of course it's imagination, if we know something existed it would no longer be believing, but knowing. That doesn't mean people should just stop believing, they're allowed to believe what they want and shouldn't be looked down on because you think different.

And it's not all imagination in the way you seem to look at it, as I have said many times (and you seem to ignore), people have their own reasons for believing, some do it through some sort of reasoning / theory, some have experiences that make them believe and some simply find comfort in believing a higher power is looking over them.

[STyL4]

munch and SAFC got a good point.

[Maka]

Thank you for your reply SAFC. I appreciate it.

[durrrrr]

I wouldn't care about religions if some of those didn't want to conquer the world and put all the people under one religion roof.