[Serious Discussion] Religion

[durrrrr]

Durr: Necromancy of threads.

I don't believe in god, but i don't like evolution as it's been explained to me. Just the right atoms arranged themselves in just the right way to create some kind of life, and all the genetic info to reproduce and adapt and evolve into everything that now exists, and that just happened to happen right on a relatively stable planet that's not going to fall into the sun any time soon that has liquid water AND contains sufficient oxygen water and carbon to sustain its billions of offspring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3nvH6gfrTc

Also, if there was no life, there would be no one to even ask the question "Why did we just happen to evolve in this suitable planet?".

[Zezima]

mad

[ELABD]

Oh that topic. xD
Well from me things have changed way too much I am still not an atheist. However, I started reading and searching about science deeply. Things I have seen till now are so persuasive but I need to make sure from the evidence that scientists provide. I am not sure I those evidence are true or not. One of the main objections we had on religions that you just believe stories which are told to us. It same with science but a bit different science tells us that it has evidence, but you need to study to make sure that those evidence are not fake. I am not sure why shall a scientist fake evidence but I don't trust anything/one now. This topic have helped me a lot to reach this point. I have opened my mind as you guys told me. Removing holiness from religion and investigating it changed everything. I am not sure about anything now and I need enough time to be sure before coming to a conclusion.
That topic had a great effect on my life. I am just glad that I took part in it. 

[Maddolis]

Glad to hear that ELABD, it brings me much hope
If I may just chime in with a couple of thoughts...
I just wish people would treat religion with the same skepticism as you say you treat science in your above post. I understand what you're saying regarding the 'I need to study to understand that this isn't bullshit-' many people are in the same boat. There's this odd juxtaposition between trusting/(having faith) in scientists and not believing anything based on the person's position, or, argument on authority. The major differences between this and religion, as I see it, are as follows:

1. All science is completely open to scrutiny. There is nothing sacred about any part of scientific knowledge- anyone is open to argue against anything brought up by science. Of course, if you have a 14 year old's level of understanding and you're arguing a case against evolution with countless thousands of professors, PhDs and Masters of science, you're going to be ridiculed (at least in any country where science and education are taken seriously).

2. The fruits of science can be observed, if you are reading this, in your immediate vicinity. Our notions on religion were stronger 300 years ago than they are now, but you didn't have computers, the internet- not cars and not even light bulbs. Our scientific knowledge, on the other hand, has grown at an exponential rate over the last couple of hundred years, and so we can do all of these amazing things. I see no reason scientists as a collective would selectively bullshit about one or two things.

3. Science presents its evidence to the public. Most bits of scientific knowledge are available to anyone with access to a library or the internet, so there is no hiding.

There are also areas like string theory which divide a number of top scientists. Anything truly on the forefront of science will do that, at any given time. Something like evolution is an old theory- there are still many biological questions still unanswered, but the fact is that it's incredibly well understood, accepted by everybody in the field of science that's worth their salt, and not even mentioned in argument in typical scientific discourse. It can also be observed in species today! [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_wall_lizard]

As such, there are a number of scientific ideas where, although one such as myself wouldn't understand the evidence (ie, quantum theory), I can directly see the fruits of that research, and we'll all see it soon enough in quantum computers. And, if ever I feel disenchanted or distrusting of the scientists studying quantum mechanics, I know that I can open up a book on QM and start reading. If I were to decidedly remain ignorant and argue against it, I'd be giving up my dignity and looking as big of an idiot as the anti-evolution camp.

[ELABD]

yeh I agree with you, ALL muslim the people I have me in my life don't really understand evolution or big bang theories. Most of them just think that it is all about chance and luck which is not wrong and noone of them really tries to search in them deeply claiming that there are many scientist who don't believe in evolution without even giving examples which is so stupid actually. Evolution seems so real for me now but that is just based on the evidence which were given to us. As an 18 years old guy who had an Egyptian education I can't really tell whether those evidence are real or not and that is the point I have mentioned in the last post and as you said they are open to everyone to investigate and argue about but this is gonna time till i learn.

However, religion is essential for some people like in my country. Life here is really hard to a way you can't imagine. People just cling to the hope that they gonna go to paradise after they die and that is what is keeping them from suicide or doing crimes. Facing the fact that there might be/ there is no god hurts a lot. It has lead me to severe depression ofc I had other problems but this was the main one. I planned to suicide several times but couldn't do it xD. So for me it's better to leave people who are in real misery with there beliefs as it's there own hope.

My family has passed a big financial problem. My dad was in debt with about 500k EGP. That problem has made him to travel to another country to find a job and try to solve it. (and yeh it was almost like he escaped xD). My mother was the one who solved this problem she took loans and payed that debt then started to pay parts of the loans back monthly and the problem was solved after years of struglling and shit. My mother is sure that god is the one who helped her to do so. She wakes everynight at 3-4 am and starts to pray she has done this daily for more that 12 years or so and that was her only hope in life.

so for some people religion is important or there life gonna end. Sometimes it is useful and that is why it still exist till now.However, once you realize that it is not true you start to depend on yourself and leave hopes away. I don't know my purpose of life and the goals I want to achieve but the only thing I know know that I was lucky to be born and to have a life and I am gonna make the most of it

offtopic: Your English is perfect how could you reach that level?

[Nater]

offtopic: Your English is perfect how could you reach that level?

He's Australian! and a smart guy.

[Maddolis]

yeh I agree with you, ALL muslim the people I have me in my life don't really understand evolution or big bang theories. Most of them just think that it is all about chance and luck which is not wrong and noone of them really tries to search in them deeply claiming that there are many scientist who don't believe in evolution without even giving examples which is so stupid actually. Evolution seems so real for me now but that is just based on the evidence which were given to us. As an 18 years old guy who had an Egyptian education I can't really tell whether those evidence are real or not and that is the point I have mentioned in the last post and as you said they are open to everyone to investigate and argue about but this is gonna time till i learn.

However, religion is essential for some people like in my country. Life here is really hard to a way you can't imagine. People just cling to the hope that they gonna go to paradise after they die and that is what is keeping them from suicide or doing crimes. Facing the fact that there might be/ there is no god hurts a lot. It has lead me to severe depression ofc I had other problems but this was the main one. I planned to suicide several times but couldn't do it xD. So for me it's better to leave people who are in real misery with there beliefs as it's there own hope.

My family has passed a big financial problem. My dad was in debt with about 500k EGP. That problem has made him to travel to another country to find a job and try to solve it. (and yeh it was almost like he escaped xD). My mother was the one who solved this problem she took loans and payed that debt then started to pay parts of the loans back monthly and the problem was solved after years of struglling and shit. My mother is sure that god is the one who helped her to do so. She wakes everynight at 3-4 am and starts to pray she has done this daily for more that 12 years or so and that was her only hope in life.

so for some people religion is important or there life gonna end. Sometimes it is useful and that is why it still exist till now.However, once you realize that it is not true you start to depend on yourself and leave hopes away. I don't know my purpose of life and the goals I want to achieve but the only thing I know know that I was lucky to be born and to have a life and I am gonna make the most of it

offtopic: Your English is perfect how could you reach that level?

Yeah I see what you mean, and I have no issue with people using their religion as a pillar of strength, psychologically. It's when they persecute others because of these beliefs that I feel the need to say something. Losing my faith, gradual as it was, actually gave me a feeling of courage and empowerment- not to mention entertainment, especially when watching Christopher Hitchens videos on youtube.

Heheh, my English is far from perfect. I know I use hyphens in incorrect places and more often than I should, but thanks
As Nater said, I'm a Caucasian Australian so English is my first language.

[Maka]

Yeah I see what you mean, and I have no issue with people using their religion as a pillar of strength, psychologically. It's when they persecute others because of these beliefs that I feel the need to say something. Losing my faith, gradual as it was, actually gave me a feeling of courage and empowerment- not to mention entertainment, especially when watching Christopher Hitchens videos on youtube.

Heheh, my English is far from perfect. I know I use hyphens in incorrect places and more often than I should, but thanks
As Nater said, I'm a Caucasian Australian so English is my first language.

I'd follow this man into battle.

Good on you ELABD. Keep doing what you're doing!

[ELABD]