New crew moderation methods.

[XiZ]

uh estroe he never said the word "nazi", did he? And Germany was Germany in the 40s', so he may have not meant 1940sGermany as a synonym of nazi Not every sentence containing "Germany 1940" means nazi

[Richard]

uh estroe he never said the word "nazi", did he? And Germany was Germany in the 40s', so he may have not meant 1940sGermany as a synonym of nazi Not every sentence containing "Germany 1940" means nazi

What else would it be? WWII was from 1940 until 1945, so what else would it be?
Even if he didn't mean that, it'd be stupid to post such a thing as he posted here that people shouldn't make such relations. As it pretty much looks like it.

[Maddolis]

estroe, I made those rules for this thread, not the forum.
If I could make the forum rules then I wouldn't have been banned twice for questionable reasons, nor would half the posts be deleted. Yes I did mean 'nazi' in the HC4L thread, but as I stated above, the rules were for this thread only.

Anyway as this thread is being replied to, I gotta say I have a couple of points about DeaKen myself.
Not only was the kick today pretty irrelevant (getting shot at while on god mode? "Complaining?" If he can't take that then he's managing the wrong server), but he just seems to play the game to piss people off- and we are his targets.
Numerous times have I been fighting in a large gangwar when he'd come in with a monster truck with godmode (tires cannot be popped in a Monster Truck) just running over people for 5 minutes straight.
Is there any reason for this? Sure, it may get him off, but I mean a whole lot of the crap he does is the complete opposite of how I feel admins (especially management) should behave.

[Richard]

As you can't read Dutch, which the topic was in, I'll answer that as much as I can.

I indeed agree that the kick was maybe a bit overdone, as Deaken later agreed to as well. Ingame isn't the right place to complain about stuff, a topic like this is.

I believe that's the first time I hear that. However, I do sometimes see minigun kills from Deaken. But when checking who those people were, I've never seen a HC4L / W name pop up. There may have been occasions on which that was the case, I may have not been around. But that doesn't directly mean he plays to piss you off.

I don't know if that indeed is correct and I am not going to look through old logs to possible find people talking about it. We'll have to wait for either him or other people to confirm it.

[Maddolis]

I wasn't aware of the minigun kills, simply talking about running people over in gangwars (so the enemies shoot them on the ground, naturally)- purely for the sake of pissing people off (probably waiting for a response so he can /ban or /kick them).

A point I've been trying to make is that [W]/[HC4L] should be treated no differently than any other player- most of the time arguing that we are being biased against (which crew will admit is true), but if you think I don't care that management kill my enemies or randoms with miniguns then you have the wrong impression of me. Honestly they shouldn't be killing anyone with miniguns unless they know full well that it's fine by them- which usually means killing other management members.
I'm sure you'd agree that a lot of this behaviour is unjustified.

[g3344]

I agree about the miniguns. For newbies that come to LVP and see an admin/mod with a minigun might assume cheating is "ok" and then do so them selves. I don't have a problem with being killed in un-fair ways as estroe knows. *Cough*Hunter*cough*!

Maybe there is some way to set everyone, who doesn't want to be killed by a minigun, immune to mini-guns. Although IMO I think it would be just easier to stop using them altogether.

Edit: or maybe just change all the colours of people so like:

Everyone who doesn't mind be green,
And Everyone who does mind be red.

[Hitman]

Too complicated.

Just disable this frickin gun.

There's a simple command for the script, and nobody will be annoyed by miniguns, simply because no minigun is there. If u type that in the script, and you cheat a minigun and shoot, nothing will happen. If u shoot with a minigun, others will see it as you would hit your fists in the air and thats it.

It has many many many pros, and just one contra:

minigun madness or other minigun-related stuff wont work.

[Maddolis]

Precisely, as Hitman said that command would make Minigun cheaters almost undetectable.
The admins/management can just avoid using rocketlaunchers/miniguns like the rest of us do.

Crewmembers using rocketlaunchers and miniguns is just the tip of the iceberg- when I see people getting kicked for using caps I see just how tight LVP has become. It is no longer the server for a game, rather a community where 20-30 people get off on limiting others' free speech and enjoyment as much as possible, and later turning a blind eye while friends or fellow admins do the same things (write a sentence using caps, speak in other languages). I feel all members of the community should be treated as equally as possible (eg if an admin turns on a muteall, I don't have a problem with speaking caps or whatever, but when they use caps right after another guy who's been kicked for it, its kinda hypocritical).
I'm not saying admins should be kicked for caps, but players shouldn't.
Perhaps a mute if they don't stop using caps- I mean seriously, what harm does using caps do?
If somebody wins a 1v3 they should be allowed to give a  "WOOOOO!" or something, or at the peak of a joke/conversation, but after many lines in a row they should be muted.

[Peter]

There is one likely problem with this; how can we, you or anyone else expect crewmembers to be unbiased? After all, they're mostly human too, they form opinions about people, have problems with people and get relations with these people, purely based on the experiences they have. Compare a player's behaviour to a simple mathematical serie; bug abuse once and get a three day ban, bug abuse twice and it's five or six days. Same applies to other, minor incidents. Whereas a simple flame isn't bannable, annoying PM's aren't bannable and even being irritating on TeamSpeak usually gets ignored. However, when you combine all these small incidents, a larger picture is created in which the player has done more than enough to warrant a ban, and to reply to your second post here Maddolis, that is exactly what happened with shoebox and Nerd.

Everyone always has opinions about people; there is no way to overcome that. We can't ask the Las Venturas Playground administrators to lock themselfes in media-less cages in which they hear nothing but anonymous chatter. They see names associated with the messages, with the actions and responses. They get direct feedback from the ones they administer, which ranges from a clear apology to a series of direct and intense insults. I do not think anyone should want this, bottom line is, everyone has opinions about everyone else, even if it's just a quick first impression.

The main problem recently, and I'm going to be quite clear here, has been the HC4L clan and those associated with them. There have been a lot of discussions internally, and publically as well, the thing is, it simply is their attitudes. Banning someone from HC4L results in a lot of crying from quite some different persons, and with all due respect Maddolis, you too are one of the causes. Never before in the three years Las Venturas Playground has existed have there been references between the nazi's, the Second World War and the LVP Staffmembers. Never before there have been people around with attitudes like HC4L has; stubborn and not open to any explaination from administrators. Ironically the cause is always the same: they break the rules and get banned, which they think is unjustified.

There are crewmembers who have been thinking about quitting purely based on the actions HC4L decided to do. Luckily none has yet, but I wouldn't suprise if it would ever happen. You very well know this Maddolis, and frankly I still am quite puzzled as to why you cannot understand. Name a few other players who commit actions like them; get banned in once place, move on to others with the purpose to get banned there as well. I can name a few: k1lla and Stewie, the first of which has been lifetime banned as well. Racism is no-go, discrimination is no-go, neo-nazi'ism is no-go, flaming/insulting/spamming/caps are against the rules, and as minor as it all may seem, you are aware of it. If someone deliberately breaks these rules, how exactly is it our problem if they get kicked- or banned? If a player with over 500 hours of in-game time still refuses to even think about the rules, why should Las Venturas Playground spent money for such people? Quite frankly, I don't believe we should, hence why there is a thing like bans for an arbitrary period of time.

Has the crew been more strict lately? Yes, I believe so. I have seen various kicks and bans which, in my opinion, should not have been made. Do I think some crewmembers are too biased? Yes, I do. Do I think they, and only they are to blame? Absolutely not, most of the time these people are fully aware of what they were doing. The other side however is also true, as Terror said to me recently. Even if he tries to improve his behaviour, crewmembers still kick him easily for minor insults, pretty much taking his chance to do so away. The thing is; change has to come from both sides, not only the Las Venturas Playground Staff, but from the players as well, which is a difficult thing to do. As long as people keep crying about bans the way has been happening recently and keep making references between the nazi's and us, I don't see that happening very soon. This is exactly why Nerd and shoebox aren't unbanned: how long do you think it will take before they get banned again? Don't you think all moaning will start all over again purely because you don't like it? The bottom line is: Playing on Las Venturas Playground is a privilege, not a right. LVP has no obligation in any thinkable way to keep allowing people on it's server and therefore reserves the right to deny access to any of our services, to anyone, at anytime.

I'm putting all facts on the table here, and I hope you'll do the same. No party here is innocent, not the players, not the crew. In the past you have given arguments like other players commit way worse incidents than HC4L, yet I have never seen any kind of proof backing that up, I'm looking forward to that. Being an administrator is a difficult task, and all of you know all shit will be directed at the administrators if anyone doesn't agree with their ban. It involves being constantly flamed at, various insults and sometimes even death threats. For that reason I don't mind if admins go around in hydra's or hunters at times, it's a way to put pressure off them.

'nuff said.

Peter

[Maddolis]

There is one likely problem with this; how can we, you or anyone else expect crewmembers to be unbiased? After all, they're mostly human too, they form opinions about people, have problems with people and get relations with these people, purely based on the experiences they have. Compare a player's behaviour to a simple mathematical serie; bug abuse once and get a three day ban, bug abuse twice and it's five or six days. Same applies to other, minor incidents. Whereas a simple flame isn't bannable, annoying PM's aren't bannable and even being irritating on TeamSpeak usually gets ignored. However, when you combine all these small incidents, a larger picture is created in which the player has done more than enough to warrant a ban, and to reply to your second post here Maddolis, that is exactly what happened with shoebox and Nerd.

You suddenly told me that crew are human and hence biased, but then told me to compare a player's behavior to some mathematical formula (mathematics being unbiased...)
Okay...

The main problem recently, and I'm going to be quite clear here, has been the HC4L clan and those associated with them. There have been a lot of discussions internally, and publically as well, the thing is, it simply is their attitudes. Banning someone from HC4L results in a lot of crying from quite some different persons, and with all due respect Maddolis, you too are one of the causes. Never before in the three years Las Venturas Playground has existed have there been references between the nazi's, the Second World War and the LVP Staffmembers. Never before there have been people around with attitudes like HC4L has; stubborn and not open to any explaination from administrators. Ironically the cause is always the same: they break the rules and get banned, which they think is unjustified.

That's where you're wrong, there've been plenty of people with attitudes equal or worse than that of the "worst" HC4L.
In the last 3 years of LVP, only in the last year have the crew been as tight as they are, which pisses more people off and causes more hatred.
I'm sure you've seen videos on the internet or stories of Police brutality, especially in New York, or perhaps Los Angeles. The citizens don't have a very good opinion of the police there, and hence don't feel the need to abide by the rules they enforce, and there is a higher crime rate. Policing can be split into two major areas- Community based, and action based (community be helping out citizens, action be making more arrests and such). Not only is the LVP crew 99% action based, but they are also acting more like NYPD or LAPD than more unbiased police forces.
I never said the crew needs to be perfectly unbiased- but at least a good 90% unbiased.
I've been temp-modded a few times, and when I was I was flamed by people who have flamed me probably more than some crewmembers have been flamed all together ingame- but I didn't feel the need to make any kicks or bans (I didn't even make any mutes apart from one occasion- not that I'm saying you shouldn't mute people).

You seem to be getting the wrong point from my posts here- I'm not debating solely how the LVP crew treats HC4L, but how they treat the players in general. I don't see why if a random joins the server and speaks one line of caps they should get a kick- a warning or a mute should do fine.

There are crewmembers who have been thinking about quitting purely based on the actions HC4L decided to do. Luckily none has yet, but I wouldn't suprise if it would ever happen. You very well know this Maddolis

I didn't know that, but it gives me a ridiculous looking smile- that's pretty sweet!

Has the crew been more strict lately? Yes, I believe so. I have seen various kicks and bans which, in my opinion, should not have been made. Do I think some crewmembers are too biased? Yes, I do. Do I think they, and only they are to blame? Absolutely not, most of the time these people are fully aware of what they were doing. The other side however is also true, as Terror said to me recently. Even if he tries to improve his behaviour, crewmembers still kick him easily for minor insults, pretty much taking his chance to do so away. The thing is; change has to come from both sides, not only the Las Venturas Playground Staff, but from the players as well

I've seen plenty of positive change from players (especially HC4L), but not a great deal from the crewmembers on the whole.

I'm putting all facts on the table here, and I hope you'll do the same. No party here is innocent, not the players, not the crew. In the past you have given arguments like other players commit way worse incidents than HC4L, yet I have never seen any kind of proof backing that up, I'm looking forward to that. Being an administrator is a difficult task, and all of you know all shit will be directed at the administrators if anyone doesn't agree with their ban. It involves being constantly flamed at, various insults and sometimes even death threats. For that reason I don't mind if admins go around in hydra's or hunters at times, it's a way to put pressure off them.

Glad you admit the crew isn't innocent- admitting it is the first step towards fixing it
Constantly you say on irc that you don't have the power to fix a bad situation, but seriously, you run the server, you own it and you have more power than any of the other admins- you just let a lot of the management walk over you far too easily. If Deaken bans Terror, you're allowed to unban him as you are the owner and founder of the server (based on something you said yesterday on irc).

Death Threats? When I cop death threats over the internet they give me a good chuckle- certainly nothing to slit my wrists about. If the admins can't handle death threats over the internet then there's plenty of Mario games still selling well.

I'd like this thread to develop further than a simple "LVP crew vs HC4L gang" court case, because I know plenty of people who have strong opinions and strong points but are perhaps weary to post their point of views as they may be biased against ingame. If anyone wants something posted anonymously, contact me on irc or pm here and I'll post it for you.

'nuff said.

Has the crew been more strict lately? Yes, I believe so. I have seen various kicks and bans which, in my opinion, should not have been made. Do I think some crewmembers are too biased? Yes, I do.

'nuff said.