(04-04-2011, 07:06 PM)STyL4 link Wrote: the autheniticty of Josephus is usually challenged simply because the surviving scraps of his text have down to us from church hands - thus in our times of conspiracy theories everyone immediately assumes it is a fake. Yes, many copies were made from 1100 onwards and the wording is similar to that given above. But the validity of his work seems to be only questioned in relation to his reference to Jesus.

A further problem with Josephus is that early Christians make no mention of it. Except that is for one in-direct reference by Origen in 240 AD which interestingly predates all known Josephus manuscripts. Origen make two references to Josephus. First he mentions the lesser known reference by Josephus as Jesus being the Brother of James but significantly goes on to note that Josephus did not accept Jesus as Christ. It is important here to remember that Christians were still seen as enemies of Rome at that time so wouldn't have the resouces needed to undertake such widespred forgery of an existing work. Therefore, it is clear that even if the church later embellished copies (perhaps converting Josephus to a christian) there must have been two references to Jesus in the original work by Josephus - how else could Origen have referred to them?

Next, we need to go even further back to consider the one of the earliest Christian documents - the Didache. This contains the early basic instructions, teaching and practice of the Christians. It is generally believed to be authentic, possibly written by the original Apostles and is usually dated between 50 - 120AD. This remarkable document not only mentions Jesus but states that baptism must be "into the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the holy Spirit." And remember that this is quite possibly a first generation christian document.

Also, consider the accounts of the apologists. Take the case of Tertullian born 155/160 AD. Tertullian is widely accepted as being a Roman citizen, well educated and well versed in the law and his text is considered genuine. In a written defense of his faith to the senate he stated, ' At His own free-will, He with a word dismissed from Him His spirit, anticipating the executioner's work. In the same hour, too, the light of day was withdrawn, when the sun at the very time was in his meridian blaze. Those who were not aware that this had been predicted about Christ, no doubt thought it an eclipse. You yourselves have the account of the world-portent still in your archives.

But, lo, on the third day there a was a sudden shock of earthquake, and the stone which sealed the sepulchre was rolled away, and the guard fled off in terror: without a single disciple near, the grave was found empty....

All these things Pilate did to Christ; and now in fact a Christian in his own convictions, he sent word of Him to the reigning Cæsar, who was at the time Tiberius.'

Tertullian is clearly identifying Jesus, His death, His resurrection and the darkness that fell upon the earth, and stating that a written report was submitted to the emperor by Pilate. It should also be pointed that there is not (as far as I'm aware)not one single early Roman document or reference to one in which Rome ever denied it had crucified Jesus - given the problems it faced with Christians had there been no Jesus and no crucifixion Rome would have certainly have said so.

In this regard Julian the apostate (331-363 AD), the last Roman Emperor to oppose Christianity, referred to the records of Jesus' being put to death. These records must have still been available in his day. He was a firm and thorough opponent of the faith he once professed to follow and had every interest in refuting and defeating the spread of the Christian faith. Had there been no knowledge or record of Jesus' existence or execution, he undoubtedly would have mentioned this. In fact, the reverse is the case.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_there_real_proof_that_Jesus_Christ_really_existed  quoted all the info there, read it all and understood it all. i can make it shorter just for you, mr. "debater"

(04-08-2011, 08:32 PM)STyL4 link Wrote: i gave u clearly demanded statements, all u did is reject them or ignore them like Grim because he had nothing back to say(just look at the pages previous, he was either spechless or said something completely random) - i gave u wonders of the Bible which obviously could not be denied, about radio waves and planes they're 100 % in the Bible just give me some time to find them, Bible is big u know.

"And I am pretty damn sure Target knows more about the bible than you do rofl" - doing opinions while not knowing(just to defend his side) - obviously going off-topic due to his loss on this debate

same with flaming and so on.. obviously u did not provide me replies just ur own opinion, get it in ur head. u were spechless or didnt reply the theme, thats what i always do, u change it because u r weak on specific subject.

if you could wrap your minds around God you would be God, get this into ur head.

(04-08-2011, 07:02 PM)STyL4 link Wrote: i have to do everything for u since u didnt do nothing? well obviously because u guys are just asking, im answering..

just go like 2 pages from here and see solid proofs, and i also explained them briefly and no , i wont come to ur country just to do that for u. but there are those verses 100 % and if u get me lying then go on and post proofs, i'll eat my words then

WLproxy, nice arguments, too bad u just replied with complete shame without knowing anything about what we're talking about.

(04-09-2011, 09:13 AM)durrrr link Wrote: Why are you telling me about 'wonders of the Bible'? I don't care about them, I don't try to deny/prove them now.
I just asked for the verse where it proves radio waves and planes.

(04-09-2011, 12:28 AM)STyL4 link Wrote: we know who edited it , smarty.

Quote:now ure saying the truth is evil, not in ur religion. it says God loves u 7 time mores than ur mom(which is kind of ... interpretation) , and that means pure love. its truth what i said, ALL truth.

Quote:u dont know what is "the way He wants"

Quote:but truly i debate on facts. u also stated that you would not go to hell because ure mistaken about his son, let me tell u something. someone has belived in u whole life, gave u dedication, gave u everything then suddenly he thought ur son is someone else. ure truly at that, but will u just "back stab him"? seems unlogical.

Quote:they do know for the most of

Quote:not my best, but every night i kneel before him and if its needed i even kiss the floor to show his dedication, but OFCOURSE it could be better and WAY better too, seeing some Christians being so dedicated. and Muslims.

Quote:obviously i dont deny Allah, obviously i dont deny Muslim's religion but I CANT deny Jesus dude and so cant i God. he helped me too much and if u think they are conclusions OK, but its my personal life. good luck with ur religion TwistedDemon, but i suggest u to lean on the God's guide: "I help those that can help themselves", u can think with ur own head and u can serve him at the same time.

(04-09-2011, 01:08 AM)Nater link Wrote: http://www.metal-is-forever.com/images/COF4.jpg

I own this tshirt now hehe I got it given to me  I love it  :7 Went to a gig with it like 2-3 ppl complained and one woman asked me what my views were on religion she said that Jesus had helped her in her life and was trying to preach onto me so i was a smart ass back at her  I dont care if ppl believe in it etc but i fucking hate preachers